RST: Gordon, how strong are you to go so far? Almost every text I write you starts with “Where’s Waldo?” You are in a different situation every day.
PARTICIPATION: At first all these visits were because they kicked me out of the president’s house. I thought that after 45 years I would still be living in a 30,000 square foot house. I decided to spend a year sleeping by visiting other institutions and taking advantage of their obesity.
RST: Well, you are singing for your dinner by providing leadership assistance and support to current presidents. Everyone I talk to has hidden some pearl of wisdom they heard from you 100 years ago that they remember and apply. I will collect them and sell them on eBay.
PARTICIPATION: I wish I could have taken a sabbatical during my tenure and visited a few of these amazing campuses. I would have learned a lot that would be useful in my institution. I am amazed at the good work done by many, especially those who are forced.
RST: That’s why I’m like this to carry you around asking you to talk to presidents who won’t normally have your cell phone number. And why do we get invitations to speak to presidents and boards. (Yes, my role will be to carry your luggage; I know my place.)
Which brings me to what I want to talk about: pecking order. I find it, um, interesting that we academics, in all our talk about diversity, equality and inclusion—values, by the way, Gordito, that I think are fundamental and important—also know differently where we stand in the hierarchy. Who do we look up to and who do we look down on. Elitism all the way.
PARTICIPATION: Oh my. He has hit on an issue that exposes the inferiority of higher education. And I know very well that I am a good worker of the “pecking order.” It is built in system dynamics. Always striving to be like someone or something else rather than wanting to be better than yourself. These two-year institutions are trying to become four-year institutions, four-year universities to become medical universities, and they are. It’s not really about striving for excellence but rather finding more bells and whistles. And this pattern is often found in private areas, where it is often about positions. This catching and scratching follows the same pattern as individual scholars. Fame more than purpose is the coin of the realm.
RST: You and I have both stepped down the ladder of fame. When I was a young editor at Oxford University Press, a colleague at UNC Press who built an extraordinary list once teased me, “Rachel, you won’t know what a good editor you are until you come out here to the states.” I didn’t get it. Then I moved to Duke Press and realized you were right. I once worked hard on a book proposal with an author thinking he would publish it with me. He polished it to the best shape and then took it to a press that he thought was very respectable. Wow.
PARTICIPATION: Oh, you’re right. There is a truth here, and that is that the blood is green, the more you can write a word without having to have high firepower.
RST: We both have degrees from the Ivies. When I worked in admissions at Duke, I always said where you go to school doesn’t matter much, but not in the ways that most people think. You can get a good education anywhere. But a more selective reception means you get to rub shoulders (or other body parts) with people who don’t look like you. And they can be your best friends and introduce you to different countries. I know you want to tell your oft-repeated story about your law school study group.
PARTICIPATION: It is a myth. I moved from Vernal, Utah, to Columbia without knowing a soul. And like in the convention of that time, you got people to study with, especially in the first year. I soon discovered that my rural Utah cachet was limited and, like the awkward kid trying to get picked for the varsity team, I was ignored by all these Ivy League graduates. So I went to the dean’s office and got a list of first-year students and asked a few from places like Arkansas, Oregon and Iowa to be my study group. The result of that is that the boys from the small town ended up with many other students working for us.
RST: He went on other hiccups. The best part of that story is who they were. But there is no boasting and no name-dropping.
PARTICIPATION: There is no substitute for grit and humility. The truth is that affirmations are not the only path to success.
RST: But I also think we will never get rid of the idea of being in or out of the “right” clubs. And most of us end up working for lesser institutions than where we got our degrees. And we never stop longing to climb back up that ladder.
PARTICIPATION: This is my kimono time—
RST: —Gordon! Please stop talking about opening your bathrobe and winking at our readers. That’s right gross inappropriately.
PARTICIPATION: This is a bad picture if you want to present it that way—
RST: We use our words to paint pictures in the minds of readers, and no one needs a picture of your 82-year-old board. Or even my 64 year old. Next up: decorating lessons.
PARTICIPATION: I wanted to be the president of a private university, and really, I wanted to be in the Ivy League. And so I was at Brown. I had reached the top of the pile, where I quickly discovered that there was a lot of wind at the top. Let me be clear—Brown is a world-class institution, but I quickly learned that my struggle was beyond my comfort zone and theirs. Appropriateness is essential to effective leadership. I went from a large world grant university with 65,000 students to a small campus of 6,500. I was a deer on the fence and that’s when I got a personal clarification: Be who you are and find that perfect fit when your skills match the times. I got that at Vanderbilt. But a coda about Brown: It was probably the place where I learned the most about leadership and purpose. Go Bears!
RST: Good political recovery, mate. He transferred from Ohio State to Brown. How did you hear the pecking order?
PARTICIPATION: Rachel, you are begging me to share these stories.
RST: Only if you can do it honestly and for yourself.
PARTICIPATION: I was an AAU member and I had started at the University of Colorado. As you know, AAU is made up of public and private institutions. But in fact, the independents were the College of Cardinals and the public were the states. I remained one of the most feared educational leaders in this country for a while. I didn’t dare say hello to him, and he had no intention of welcoming me. And it was the same with many independent presidents. It was clear that there was an order to rape. Then I moved to Brown and at that time I became the chairman of the AAU board. Suddenly I came out of hiding and became a player. That story is not told out of spite but represents the reality of higher education.
RST: Or maybe a little anger, because, as I discovered, he is actually human. But I think this plays, too, into the desires of the institution. Many leaders seem to think that if they had more money, or got to R-1 or D1 or whatever, things would be fine. Yes, it is about standards, but also about other things. He was known as a builder. Bigger, faster, stronger. Why?
PARTICIPATION: If there’s one thing I can put out of her misery, that’s it US News & Report. It has done more damage to higher education than the federal government. It caused this negative effect: Everyone wants to achieve high status and dignity, so many institutions sell their souls to rise. This has caused many institutions to abandon what they are to try to be what they are not. In my opinion, the highest ambition of a university or college is to be the best they can be. Following the leader gives up real aspirations for greatness.
RST: Bingo. I recently had a heated conversation with the former president of a very wealthy, fancy-pants liberal arts college. He kept saying that if they had more money, they would be better off. They could be, you know, Amherst. When I asked what was different about his college, he had a good answer, and I wondered why that wasn’t enough.
PARTICIPATION: There is no Nirvana. Having high aspirations is what all institutions should strive for. But what I have found is that just being famous is not enough. Once you get the flu, it becomes increasingly unsatisfying, because jumping over the fence just shows that the grass isn’t greener on the other side.
RST: I’ve complained about how many of our facilities are like smoothies—not all of them have truly unique machines. What are they doing? I love them. I like to say, “Mormons are killing it,” because they know exactly who they are, who they serve and what their purpose is, just like other religious institutions do. It’s the same with high tech schools like Kettering or the Colorado School of Mines. Same with vocational colleges, like Berea or Paul Quinn. It is the same as the laughter of the regional presidents I have been introducing you to.
PARTICIPATION: Yes, of course. I recently visited High Point University, which has created a world-class educational experience for its students. President Qubein is an extraordinary leader. He came from the private sector, so he had no responsibility for education at all. But he was also not afraid to listen and learn. High Point has risen to a level of great value and respect because the president and leadership had a clear plan on how to build the university by focusing on a few goals and driving towards them. The result is that they did not climb to the top—they found their own mountain. This is the future: Strive for quality and differentiation based on the strengths and opportunities of that particular institution rather than a particular temporal order.
RST: This is a great example of finding a niche. I love celebrating places that wave their exotic flags (RIP, Hampshire) even if it’s not my cup of decaf hemp chia chai milkshake.
